Oldgas member ProudDad had a fantasy/reproduction sign listed on e-Bay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/gulf-pump-plate-sign-gas-oil-porcelain-vintage-antique-/290881586309?

I brought it to his attention by posting the following:

"I just looked at your other items for sale.

I would like to bring to your attention that, the 11 3/4" porcelain Gulf plate that you have listed is not an original sign. It is a reproduction sign."

He sent me a PM, and I once again to explained to him.
"Your experienced Gulf collector failed to realize that Gulf never made a ppp in that size of that design."

He read my PM and still continued to sell the sign. I don't know how, I could have made it more clear to him that he was selling a reproduction sign.

There is no excuse for this. A prudent individual would have accepted what I was telling them. At the very least they should have sided on the side of caution and the auction should have been cancelled.

Not being one to just sit around and do nothing. I'm making this public. Then at least, I'm not part of the problem. Evil prevails when good men choose to do nothing!

It's disgusting and disturbing when week after week we discuss on this forum about people selling these reproduction signs as originals on e-Bay. The damage it does to this hobby and the reputation that these sellers create for themselves.

In light of the foregoing. I will be the first to cast my vote that this member should no longer be allowed the privilege to be a member of this site. His actions bring into disrepute the reputation of this site and all it's members. Week after week we all state our dislike of those people that sell fakes as reals. This is your chance to take a stand against this sort of thing and send a clear message to any other member that may want to profit from fakes. In no uncertain terms make it clear that their dishonesty will not be condoned. Or, you can allow them to walk amongst us; which would be a slap in the face of everyone that chooses to condemn dishonesty.

I agree with you Dave. It makes me sick seeing all these repops bring crazy money on eBay! It's sad! You have my vote 100%

Dave

I dont know you personally.....but its easy to judge by your posts that you are part of the solution. Thank you for soldiering on in a war we will never win.

Right on, Dave!

I am not one to "jump on the bandwagon", but if one knowingly commits fraud or any other criminal act(theft,etc) connected/associated with this hobby...he/she should be banned. It is a privilege to be a member here, NOT A RIGHT. Care must be taken though and some sort of "due process" followed, but let those with the most experience(moderators) decide. Dave Jones

I too sent him a pm about the plate explaining that Gulf never used this logo on their plates or even used a 12 inch plate.. I honestly didnt see it until about 2 hrs before the end of the auction, so I said to myself maybe he didnt read my pm in time. Im disapointed too.

Listen everyone. Thanks for the lynching. As I explained to Dave, this sign was showed to a local collector that has collected Gulf for a long time who said it was legit. So the information I had was that it was real. A friend and long time collector telling me its legit for me was better than somebody's opinion on old gas that I know nothing about. I contacted the buyer right away after the auction ended and told him there was concern about the plate being real and if he recieved it and thought it wasn't real too that I would refund him right away!!! So no, based on one persons opinion, I did not pull the auction. I made contact with the buyer. My business between me and the buyer. I made no advertisement for this on old gas as its a common piece. An identical size plate sold on eBay last week for almost $300. All the information I had was that it was real. Guilty until proven innocent with you guys. You speak of talking about people selling reproductions week after week well the same can be said for behavior like this. Off putting, judgemental behavior and rude comments. I made it right with my buyer. My business and his. I would never intentionally sell something reproduction. I have sold hundreds of items, everyone with positive response. You all have no idea who I am outside of here. If you had a clue, you would change your tune.

Dave, I saw your post and looked at the item on Ebay. There were only a couple of hours left on the listing. Maybe he didn't see your email in time. Not everyone has access to their computer 24/7. Or he may have made it right with the winner. You really have no way of knowing what happened AFTER you sent your email. I think that a little more time is warranted BEFORE he is hung.

I'll second that

Really? You guys are saints! Wow

I buy and sell both original and reproduction/fantasy items. I make it clear to the buyer which items are old and what are new. If anyone credible was to question what I advertised as old I would put it aside for a few days, weeks or months until I completed more research.

Guys look, I had the plate looked at by a local collector who told me it was real. I got the message from Dave who said it was not. I felt Dave was incorrect so I continued the sale. After it sold I notified the buyer right away of all of this and will make it right with him immediately. I would NEVER sell something misrepresented, ever. We are all collectors and all need to do great business with each other and we all make mistakes. I made one and I'll make it right too!!! Promise!!!!!

Gary, He sent me two PM's. In the end he stated "At this point I'm going to keep with the advice of my friend.".

By this time he had received PM's from at least two fairly knowledgeable collectors telling him the sign was a fantasy piece. He knowingly choose to ignore that advice.

In this case his actions speak clearly. Life is about choices...and it's those choices that define us.

I've just finished reading every post concerning this subject . All I can say is SHAME ON HIM !!!!!!!!!!! Ed Shaver

You may be right about the emails,but he may trust his friend more than others that he doesn't know. I just think that everyone should have his day in court. Give him some time to explain his side before blackballing him. Just saying.

Agree!

I've dealt with him before and talked to him on more than a few occasions... I think you are jumping the gun on this one Dave. He is new to the hobby and isn't in the know like some of you. And so he left it on there and it sold. Did he get honest with the buyer??? Did he even accept payment? Do you know? I mean come on. If he did this one time it's one thing. If he did it weekly its another. Give a new guy a break. You learn something everyday and there is no reason to bash someone without knowing his true intentions. I'm usually a pretty good judge of character and he seems legit to me.

Once, the authenticity of the sign was brought into question. The auction should have been ended. That was the only right thing to do. Short of that, everything else is an excuse. People are judged for their actions...not their intentions.

Remorse after the fact, doesn't change the fact that a fake was sold as a real sign after being made aware. Ignorance is never a defense. Ignoring the obvious is never wise.

Some people aren't as smart nor wise as you Dave. And we don't hang people anymore here in the U.S. give the guy a chance. If I bought 20 things from you and you snuck in a fake and then Jim told me it was not real I wouldn't immediately call you a thief and a ***** and a fraud. I'd probably just slide it under my tool box and forget about it cause the fuss isn't worth the reward. Move on and enjoy the hobby.

I’ve had a passion for this hobby for a long time but am just now starting to collect higher end pieces and thanks GOD for this site because there are a lot of knowledgeable and HONEST people on here which is an invaluable resource for a newbie like me. I’m SHOCKED by how many fakes are identified on this site and the prices they bring on Ebay. I think the buyers have to except some of the responsibility too, but it does kind of turned me off from the hobby and I could see where it could really do harm to it if it continues at this pace. I’m not quitting, but I’m pretty leery..

I like to collect Standard oil and wanted to get a red crown sign but couldn’t tell what was what. Posted the question on oldgase and DWSheffer offered up some excellent information complete with pictures. Now when I’m browsing and I spot a fake I contact the individual just to express my opinion. If they didn’t know and remove it, great. If they think I can go F myself, so be it, but at least they know people are watching.

Today and ran across this sign: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Standard-White-Crown-Porcelain-Pump-Sign-1951-/160988261394 and I knew it was a repop so I contacted the seller. I haven’t receive a reply but again at least they know people are watching. I know a lot of others do this also and I encourage everyone to do it.

It also got me thinking that maybe if enough of us started complaining Ebay would staff someone like some of you veteran members on this site on their staff. There are plenty of true experts on this site and just maybe they would give them or the moderators the authority to VETO listing identified as fakes and listed as originals. Or at least provide a direct contact within Ebay itself that can end the listing. Just a thought.
That being said, I agree 100% with everything Dave said. I think there are times when honest mistakes are made but if it’s intentional there’s no excuse for it.

Agree!

Dave, you need to slow down. I doubt many people would stop an auction at the last minute because someone who they DON'T know tells them that they should. You don't know what has transpired since the auction ended. There is nothing wrong with selling a fake sign. They are bought and sold every day. Your problem is not knowing or telling that it is fake. Hopefully that was resolved between buyer and seller. Until this is known, I don't see why anyone would want to crucify him. I give up.

Gary,
Does that mean that your going to Finally Pay Up to the Agreed on price for parts that were delivered in the condition that was sent in pictures thru emails?

Dick, what the hell are you talking about? If you have a problem, let me know what it is. I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

861 parts

Dick, I paid you exactly what you asked for on those parts when I picked them up from YOU at Roy Reeds three years ago. You know damn well that is right!!! Anything else, you're a damn *****. If you have a problem, this is Not the place to bring it up. Be a man and say it to my face. I've seen you at Roy's since.

You were short & you know it

It is real simple...and should not be subject to experience, intelligence, etc. If a problem has been pointed out(fake, repo, stolen item, etc.), stop the auction immediately OR post the info on the auction page. Allow the bidders to withdraw their bids.You can always relist the item later with a revised ad if there is an issue with the item. One cannot excuse this conduct. I am not calling anyone names either. IF one starts making excuses, you will have more issues to deal with.This website should not be an instrument of adjudication either, but some sort of internal process or mechanism should be adopted so that it does not become haven for "characters". I remember a different situation earlier when the courts were involved and some of you spoke in defense of the guy because you had done business with him.That is good for a character reference, but it has nothing to do with the specific act in question. KEEP IT SIMPLE! Follow some type of due process. Be fair and consistent, but DO NOT EXCUSE.It is what it is. Members on this site are all adults and as such are accountable for their actions. When you are buying/selling you must be responsible and your actions held to a certain standard. Remember...DUE PROCESS. Don't we have some legal authorities on here? Help me out with this ? HA ! Dave

I think the seller should talk to the winning bidder and discuss with him that it's a reproduction.

The membership is not here to make up rules as we go along. This is Jim Potts site, not ours.

This problem as been brought to the memberships attention, leave it alone now.

Doug

I agree!!!

Hey guys. I just wanted to explain my side to everyone, and let me start out by saying, I appreciate everyone's input in this, start to finish.

I have been collecting for a couple of years now. I love the hobby and I am here to stay. I love the passion in the hobby, I love the people you get to meet and the friends you make.

I purchased the pump plate thinking it was legitimate myself. Since I have never really been a Gulf collector I had a very experienced local collector look at the pump plate and his opinion was that it was authentic as well. After this, I listed it on eBay for five days. During the course of the five days, it had around 130 views, many bids and I had not recieved any information that it was a reproduction. Approximately 2 hours before the auction ended, Dave contacted me and told me it was a reproduction. I had never spoken to or met Dave and made an incorrect decision and went forth with the auction. After it sold, I contacted the buyer right away and told him the concern I recieved. He was very polite and responded with the following:

"yes, if others also had doubts, why don't you just refund my paypal the full amount. This way we wipe the slate clean. I know it's hard to tell with those because some of the 20 year old repros are really good. I would rather not take the chance and create more hassle. Please confirm that you will not negativly affect my feedback. Thanks so much for your willingness to make it right. "

I sent him a refund immediately.

I want to tell everyone that this was truly a mistake on my part. I am still learning and once there was any concern about the legitimacy of the plate, I should have pulled it immediately. It was a mistake not to do so. We are all collectors that are having to protect ourselves from counterfeiting and I would never intentionally perpetuate the element of people that make their money from it.

I have learned a valuable lesson from this whole event. From this point on, I will use the members here to assist in spotting reproductions as well as the experience if friends. If anything is ever called into question again, it will be pulled immediately and investigated fully.

All I can do from here is offer my apologies for all of this, and hope you accept it.

Thanks,
Doug Steinhour

Well said.

This can be a tough situation. I have had people question items I had listed on Ebay before thinking they were repo and they were in fact original. I have even had people at swap meets tell me my capco globes are repo because they are plastic and the "real" globes are glass. You never know how knowledgable the person is giving you the info unless you know them or know of them.

I wasn't a fan of this thread to begin with, but I didn't comment because I only heard one side and nothing I could have said would have meant anything anyhow.

Now that I heard the flip side, ya, what JimT said, "well said".
EVERYBODY makes mistakes, how you handle them is the true sign of character.

Roll the credits! This soap opera is over! Tune in tomorrow on the next installment of "one life to live" north of the border edition continues.....

Good deal and well put.Enough said.
Dave Jones

I am glad that is over but what about Dave and Dick are they ok.

One other thing, I apologize for my initial posts on this. I was angered by some messages I had recieved on eBay calling me some really bad names. It's tough when your integrity is called into question, and tougher when people start using angry unprofessional language at you.

I hastily responded and regret doing so. I fell into the same behavior I was presented with and should have known better. I teach my children to rise above that and should've done so myself.

I feel one of the most important character traits a man can posses is the ability to take responsibility for his actions. I take responsibility for mine here and appreciate the understanding from you all.

Situations like this can lead to an improvement for us all if we choose to take it for what it is. A chance to learn, apologize and improve.

Handled extremely well Proud_Dad!

Proud_Dad, You are alright in my book! It takes a real man to handle things wisely , Keep up the good work!

Hi Guys;

I hate to mess this topic up by using common sense and good judgement, but I will. Please go back to the very beginning of this post and read all the comments. Hopefully the following facts don't confuse to many people.

Fact #1 Dave called Proud Dad out big time for selling a repo sign (which it probably was.)

Fact #2 Proud Dad responded that he had showed the sign to a person localy that he trusted. Right or wrong I would value the opinion of someone I knew personaly over someone who I have never met that sends an eamil just before the auction closes.

Fact #3 In the middle of the 1st page of this post Proud Dad says that he contacted the ebay buyer and told him that he would refund his money if the buyer was not happy.

There should have been a round of "ataboys" and "way to go Proud Dad" after that post, but no, many of you guys continue to verbally beat him up.

This is an incredible site and a great resourse for all of us who enjoy this hobby. Jim Potts is a good friend of mine and on more than one occasion I have thanked and also told him I don't know why he puts up with a lot of the nit picking that goes on.

As I sit here I can think of 6 different guys, each with decades of experience in this hobby, guys who have forgotton more than many of us know, that no longer post on this site. Why? Because what we have seen on this post happens regularily. When there is a fire to many people would rather throw gas on the fire as opposed to water.

Early in my collecting I have bought and may have unknowingly sold repo items. It happens. Good job Proud Dad, way to go and do the right thing!

You guys can go and rip om me now if you like, but quite honestly I would rather see few apolgies to Proud Dad from you who have jumped to conclusions with out reading the 3 facts I listed above.

What a great site, a big thanks to Jim and all the mederators for all the BS they put up with!

Lonnie Hop

Well said Lonnie

Your attention to this matter was needed and is greatly appreciated.

Thanks Lonnie!

Good points Lonnie. And welcome back proud dad!

Cheers everyone. Thanks for the understanding.

Well said Lonnie

Amen Lonnie. I agree fully with what you said. I hardly ever post anything on here but just had to when I read the "tar and feathering". It sounds like everything went well with the buyer and that is great....Dale

TKS LONNIE FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS TOPIC...I have seen this topic come up over and over again...I know new members make mistakes and they thought they were doing the right thing based on info from someone they thought they could trust with their info on a specific item because were a collector of certain brand of oil co...Its takes a big man to admit he was wrong especially within this crowd!!!,,I apauld Proud Dad to stand up and admit he maybe was wrong but in his eyes he wasn`t??..maybe he didn`t handle it right in the view of some of our Old Gassers,but he had to do what he felt was right!!! This a great site and I have been on here for a number of yrs and we need to continue to maintain this site in a positive way if we want to continue to bring in new members..
Alan

To have full disclosure here, you all need to know a couple things. Proud Dad's first two posts in this topic were delayed because I suspected that this topic could turn into a bloodbath while nearly all the moderators were sleeping as has happened in the past. His account was put on a status where his posts had to be held for review while all participants had a chance to cool down.

In the morning, his first two posts were made visible to the public. So the responses by others were not chronologically threaded as normal. In the mean time, some some stood up to hear his side and others added to the criticism. I conversed with Proud Dad by email and a long phone call. His account was returned to normal and he posted a thoughtful reply.

Unmarked repros are a scourge on our hobby. The reaction to the sight of one being sold as genuine stirs serious passion in most of our members. Mistakes may be made by anyone. How you resolve them and how you learn from them is the main thing. We should be vigilant about fraudulent repro sales, but we should also be tactful and open-minded to an explanation, proper action and apology. Sellers who hear feedback that questions their item should have an open mind as well. Risking reputation for a profitable sale should be replaced by caution and waiting for better certainty in the face of questionable authenticity.

In the end, we need to talk things like this over as adults. I'm sorry that some are turned off by disagreements and the exposing of dirty laundry. If this online community can't address the big issues of our hobby, how can things be resolved?

I have no regrets about my approach to this or bringing attention to this matter. I single handedly may have prevented someone from buying a fake.

I appreciate Proud_Dad's mature approach to this; after the fact...what do you do when caught with your hand in the cookie jar. At that point better to smooth things out.

He has been on this site for 10+ months and has over 200 posts. Over this 10 month period of time he would have to be pretty naive to not know about my posts and Jim T's posts. At the very least he would have had some sense of our experience.

I certainly wasn't born yesterday. Have worked the streets for almost 25 years...no one pulls the wool over my eyes. I always have and always will speak my mind. No plans to run for president...so this isn't a popularity contest for me. Quite frankly, I never worry about who I offend as long as I don't compromise any of my principles or what I believe in.

Thanks Jim. I thought maybe I was getting dementia. Seriously.

Thanks Lonnie,Mr Jim,and all others that gave there opinion and a reasonable explanation on this.To call a fellow member out with this type of post in a public forum is over the top.Thanks again.Mark

Totally agree with you on that one Mark .

Hi Jim;

Thanks for the clarification on Proud Dads comments. By the time I read this post the "tar & feather" crowd was well in to page three.

I do however stand by my comments. A very, very small minority of the people on this site would much rather throw "gasoline on the fire" as opposed to being objective and looking for the best in people and ultimately understanding that there are two sides to every story.

What blows me away is the LARGE number of personal messages that I have received thanking me for my comments and the number of people that said they rarely post because they never know if someone is going to take a comment the wrong way and then they are the one that is getting torn apart.

Guys we have a great site here and a great guy like Jim that puts up with us. Its time to move on and lets just make this the best possible resourse for everyone - both new as well as veteran collectors.

Thanks!

Lonnie Hop

I really dont understand this statement. How can anybody go through life worrying about what somebody else says or thinks, especially on the internet....

[/quote]

I really dont understand this statement. How can anybody go through life worrying about what somebody else says or thinks, especially on the internet.... [/quote]

i agree with this 100%....

however for some it gets old dealing with some of the egos, drama, jealousies, hidden identities & agendas, people whose words mean nothing, then on the flip side this sight gives 99% more positive than negative which is why most of us stay...........

Thank you DAVES GARAGE for preventing another one from buying a falsely advertised Repro for big money.

Thank you PROUD DAD for doing the right thing after the sale.

Thank you LONNIE HOP for stepping in and cooiling things down.

Thank you JIM POTTS for being able to handle anything thrown at you with a cool head and perfect response.


A lot happened with this situation and it turned out for the best, If more people did care what happened to others and did not just "stay out of it". Maybe we as a group could combat the repro market bit by bit. Thanks again Dave's garage for stepping up and helping an unknown person from being taken.

I believe the repro market is a good thing. How else would many of us restore gas pumps or build a service station at home on a budget.
What needs to happen is a clear line between new and old. Original and reproduction. Sellers need to be clear when listing known reproductions. Nothing to do with this incidence but to all of those sellers who know they purchased the item new and present it as old.

The thing I notice in this thread is that no one has pointed out to Proud Dad,and perhaps other newcomers,what he can do to avoid such problems in the future.

Doug, there a couple of reference books,readily available,that you might consider ordering.First is Vic's catalog.All you have to do is go to page 60 of the 08 catalog and there the sign is,listed at $18 in 08.I mention it because there are well over 50 signs,including many pop pump plates listed.Many of them too are on Ebay all the time.Second,get PCM's book on gas pump restorations and you will notice that apparently Gulf never made such a sign.

Personally,I can assure you that some experienced collectors either don't know as much as you might think,or,for reasons of their own choose to mislead those new to the hobby.We have said it many times on here,BUY THE REFERENCE BOOKS,then you can do your own researce to your own satisfaction.

AS to other issues raised on this thread,I'll stay out of that because I think enough has already been said.My post is intended to perhaps help newcomers along.

Great post Old Iron!

Since entering the hobby, I have purchased many books, auction catalogs & educate myself every day. Knowledge is power when it comes to collecting. It is simple fact but we all know it will take time. ROME WAS NOT BUILT OVERNIGHT!

Now, a QUESTION to hri_2008

You mention:

“Sellers need to be clear when listing known reproductions. Nothing to do with this incidence but to all of those sellers who know they purchased the item new and present it as old”.

We solved a problem here because the seller was an OLDGAS member. So, 1/1000,000, right?

How can one get the message out to the sellers that you mention above? I believe if they were OLDGAS members, problem would be solved. Right?

Just my 2-cents worth!

This will be met with alot of hostility. But i dont think proud dads or anyones actions away from oldgas good bad or other wise have any buisness being called into question here. What we do in our own time is no buisness to anyone on here. We have over reached a little when we police the dealings of our members private lives. Dont say anything on this site that you wouldnt say in person to someone. And even though you probably would say some of the things you probably wouldnt want to get punched in the mouth over it. And if proud dad wasnt a cool a customer as he is and we attacked him verbally right or wrong a punch in the mouth is due someone. Someone cheating someone is not ok to state that a seller on ebay is selling something fake and knows it is ok but calling someone out by name is not. Calling someone out when you dont know there character or intentions not ok. We should be a little slower to speak and judge. And should refrain from the verbal assaults on each other it does no one any good. If you cant undrstand where im comming from and dont get this than just ignore it.

i think there has been some very wise and insightfull posts here, while some differ, they all semm to have good merit and intentions behind them....

Too Bad more energy isn't spent Harassing this FRAUDULENT Seller on ebay w/ his FANTASY CURVED SIGNS;

hbcn18 (835 Purple star icon for feedback score in between 500 to 999)

Sorry but people have to be called out when selling reproductions. I was just on another site looking at a clock said to be from the 50s and I looked it up and it was from 1986. These things a trashing our hobby.

Rust and Dust I tried ignoring your post. I hope you're not referring to my initial post.

I'm glad you didn't post the first day. If that is the best you could contribute after thinking about it for two days!

This is where the approach to the whole situation went off track imo.

We don't vote on membership. Trying to whip other members up to a frenzy to blackball someone off the site is out of bounds.

Jim already has structure in place for all of this. You find a repop and want to alert other members...we have a section for that.

You think someone has violated the rules of membership and should be suspended??? We have protocol for that as well. And guess what .... it isn't the manner in which you handled it.

It's pretty comical you want to rip on someone publicly for not following proper decorum. Laughable actually.