Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion Pegasus- Reproduction or Orginial???

Any idea if this is a reproduction or an original? Thank you!

Looks good to me, has the proper mounting brackets on the back.

Original

I'm by no means an expert, but with the original mounting brackets.... I say original....

There are others on Oldgas, who are much more knowledgeable than I... I look forward to reading their replies....

Agreed...original

Agree with the others that it's original, and in much better condition than most as well!

Real McCoy..

Original with the reinforced tail.

It's as fake as the day is long. You guys are missing one obvious detail that makes it very questionable.

Ok I'll bite.what detail?

Look at the clips on the back,they are positioned so the horse would hang level, I have never seen a pegasus hang level, they all point upwards so they look like they are taking off in flight.

look at this post for a reference to the brackets.
It has 6 brackets at a different angle. This one has 4?

http://www.oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=288590

i told her i thought it was fake as well. Not an expert but something doesn't add up on this one to me.

Hope it is real for the family. it is on ebay.

I haven't seen any Repops that have the mounting bracket on back.
MOBIL was a very Large company & had signs made by different sign companies, same way with Globes, Cans, Maps, etc. Signs used in Canada were most likely made in Canada, like wise in the States.
Where 1 company had 4 brackets a different company had 6 [& I'll bet the size has a lot to do w/ it].

From Front Hoof to Rear Hoof;
Wes, What was the size that you sold?
Alyssa, What is the size of yours?

good point..

DB, but doesnt the comment from porcelain-neon make sense? The sign would be level. If he is level we should just make it a running red horse and chop off the wings!!!

depends on how you mount the mounting screws..

All you need is instructions or a template to lay that sign out, with the brackets being the way there are.

Sure if you put screws in a sq, but if you put them in as a Diamond then what happens?

Ours is a 3'. I can check again tomorrow, but I'm 99% sure it's a 3 footer. I hope it's real too, my dad took it to a dealer not too long before he passed, who verified it's authenticity! He would be not too happy if it's a repro!!!

Thanks for posting that link Mick...While I've never claimed to be an expert in anything, I do take exception to the expert who posted on Cheese's site, of which I am not a member, that a bunch of us "band-wagoners" jumped on the "it's genuine" wagon not knowing what we were talking about. I, as well as everyone else who posted more than likely, have been told for years that originals have the mounting brackets and that is the easiest way to tell an original. If the item is a reproduction, than obviously it's the first of this type that many of us have seen.
That's what these sites are for, to share information and educate others in the hobby so we do not make mistakes. If this sign is a new reproduction discovery, then why wouldn't the poster on the pitstop share that information directly with members on this site as well? Obviously Bettin is a not a contributing member of Old Gas, but the post he made on Cheese's site would have been a great visual for all of us to see on this site as well.
I guess it what this boils down to for me personally is I'm on this site because I love the hobby and I'm here to learn so I don't get burned. I very well could have on the sign in question, to which there is still no absolute answer of authenticity. To quote Bettin, " If I've learned anything over the years of collecting oil and gas stuff, it's that I don't know everything about the hobby and the only people that worry me are the ones who deal in absolutes and think they do know everything." I agree whole-heartidly with that statement as I'm sure many others do reading this thread. Again, I am here to learn, share, and make my hobby a good one. If I'm wrong, ill-informed, etc. tell or show me why!
Another quote, "However, it would be helpful if the "experts" posting on this oldgas thread at the time, would make sure their information is correct - or don't post at all. Lately, there have been to many postings that just are not accurate, and it's unfortunate for the newbies." If there are so many inaccurate posts on this site, please contribute to help make your business/hobby better for everyone.
Thanks for listening,
Darin

I'm not convinced that this is not an original sign.

I've read bettin's post. All I can say is that he is full of himself. I quote what he stated "the only people that worry me are the ones who deal in absolutes and think they do know everything." What a hypocrite. After having read his post that statement describes him and his post.

I lend no credibility to any proof that supposedly came from someone wishing to remain anonymous. It's self serving and of little relevance without a person putting their name and credibility to it.

I don't like the tone of bettin's post. That information could have been posted in a friendly, informative manner and with an open minded approach. When a person comes out swinging like that...I just can't help but question their motives.

I stick with: the "Real McCoy"
the other side hasn't proved otherwise (sheesepitstop)

Bettin says 2' owner now says 3'
is there a motive here:
Randy,

Usually you don't post stuff unless it's accurate, but noticed your information is wrong on the 2' flat pegasus horse.

Here's a link to a posting I just put on cheese's site about it, titled

"A New Type of Fake (??) Pegasus on Ebay" :

http://cheesepitstop.com/viewtopic.php?t=10983

Ron

Ron Bettin

Bettin Family Investments

145 South Hickory Street

Chillicothe, Ohio 45601

I've owned one just like it within the last 3 years, and returned it to the seller (definitly a stand-up guy!!) for a refund. After showing it to 4 of the most experienced sign collectors/dealers I know, they all agreed it was NOT an original sign, and I concurred.

I bought it sight-unseen, but on inspection it just didn't look right. The condition was considerably better than the one shown here, but the metal was much thinner than I expected, and there was very little shelving in the porcelain. The seller consulted with me by phone before he purchased it and I agreed to buy it from him, based on pictures he provided. The moral of the story is it's much easier to make an informed decision about authenticity if you can hold it in your hand before buying. I don't knowingly buy reproductions, and this is a sign I would not/did not add to my collection, for whatever that's worth.

Richard

& it's only gonna get worse as the counterfeiters get better [globes, cans, signs, everything, etc.]

Ron may be lots of things, but a moron hes not. I 've had a small issue with him on an anonymous purchase on ebay and wouldnt deal with him again, but that doesnt mean he is not a very knowledgeable dealer. One thing he definitely is ,is a sign guy. Even though I like to consider myself a "Sign Guy") I'm pretty sure he knows more about signs and what is out there then most of us-not all- -(certainly me) about signs. He used to post on oldgas and contribute quite a bit but got teed off and hit the road. Just because you may not agree with a person doesnt make them wrong or discount their experience. As far as being self serving, There have been many, many authentic horses on ebay that Ron B hasnt pointed out questionable things about. I dont think he has an ax to grind with the seller ,thats for sure. I havent chimed in on this thread because all those rack marks. I've never seen one with all those rack marks so I am skeptical but not sure one way or the other. I was leaning towards original, but now that Ron made his case I feel he may be right. My feet are firmly planted in midair. When in doubt I try to pass. Not that I would have been a player on this sign either. Ron says those "recently found" Shell air signs (Last 5 years) are fake too. I'm still not convinced -but stay off them anyways. He may be right on those too.

I posted the link only to try and help shed some light on the authenticity of the sign.as JimT said," a moron he is not" some may have issues with ron,but again that's not why I posted it.i also thought the sign was original ,until I saw the pics and explanation.all of the other signs have the brackets at an angle,if this Peggy was mounted in the correct position,one would have to slide it onto the hangers at an angle,in order for them to lock in place,not straight down as all of the others I have seen.maybe not a major point,but certainly something to think about.even the three footer talked about had the angled brackets. And cookie cutters,the brackets are level,when the horse is in the correct head up position. Jmo and eddy,I think you should know whom you are referring to when calling them a name like that.

It sure looks real but I'm going with fake & this is my reasoning why.
Like Randy said, the mounting screws could be positioned so that the horse is mounted at the right angle. But then the tabs would not be vertical & they should be. My .02.
I agree with Mick that Eddy should know who he's talking about before name calling like that. Better yet no name calling at all!

Cliff

I though fake as soon as I saw the over done rack marks on the back. Reminds me of the fake Mack Bulldogs with rack marks and mounting brackets. I would have to agree with Ron.

Thank you Richard for chiming in and giving your points on the sign. For me personally, since Richard specializes in Mobil as do I, whatever his feelings are on a Mobil item I will share until I could be shown otherwise. Richard has been collecting for a few years more than myself!
I do know that Bettin is very knowledgeable dealer with many years in the hobby, but I do feel it was the tone of the post on the other site that has rubbed many the wrong way. It is a good post with many valid points, and that's why I'm glad Mick brought it to our attention. As I stated, I too am here to learn so I don't get burned on such an expensive sign in the future. Like DB said, this hobby is not going to get any easier as the years go on to spot outright fakes and repros.
Darin

I have removed a post that violated some of the membership rules.

Did you removed my post also ?

Yes, it quoted the post that I removed....I must say though, you were spot on with your comment.

Mr. Bettin has a great deal of experience in buying and selling signs. He is certainly not intelligence-deprived as a younger member said in a very blunt way in a post that has been removed.

For the record, Mr. Bettin lost his membership privileges here 2 years ago.

It is funny that the owner is questioning the authenticy of the sign after they have taken it to a dealer that claims it is the real deal. The owner asked me in a Pm if it was real and I gave my honest opinion which i suspected it to be a repop as does Richard.. They suspected it was to begin with. Looks like they know it is fake now and magically want it to be real. Just my two cents.

???

That's right Jim, Thanks

Again just another fine "Newbie" comment on here. I believe this woman has gone above and beyond trying to be honest with everyone. Might you be another one of her low ball offers when she came to this site (a few weeks ago) asking for our help? This site has gone so far down hill with all the new members posting BS in the last year.

Doug

Mick, your comments are very well put. The info on the other forum by Ron B. is very interesting read, especially the most recent, saying this sign was made in the 1990's. Way back, when this sign would have been in use, oil companies had standards and sure would not have let an error like this slip by. I don't know Ron from Adam, having never met him, I do however get both gas mags and see Ron doing a lot of articles, visits a lot of collectors and sees and handles more signs in a day than most people handle in a month. I believe he is out there helping the hobby more than a lot of people and sure would go along with his thinking if he feels a sign is wrong.

For the record I sent this person multiple messages trying to verify if the sign is real or not. I sent her different links to multiple variation then told her I am not sure 100%. It told her to ask $2200 if she thought it was real and then made her an excellent offer if she believed it was a fake. I let her make the choice! I am not the type of person to try and get something for nothing. I only offered her anything because I can't afford a real deal at the moment and I still don't think it is one. FYI I offered her the going rate of a repop on eBay. So here is the "Newbie" that isn't running this site downhill. I am the "Newbie" that does research before hand that way I don't have to regret it later. Nuf said.

IMO you are running down the site when you talk (negative) about a women (you never met or know) who is stuck with a room(s) full of junk to the rest of the world. Hundreds of signs, bottles, cans etc..And you could do a better job getting rid of everything, (not having a clue as to what was left to her). Don't run the woman down plain & simple with negative comments questioning her intregity (sp). You didn't buy (get) the sign move the hell on with it.

I agree with Doug that this was an unprofessional and uncalled for post...and I find it equally disturbing that you are failing to acknowledge that.

Why would you make that post especially knowing her situation? Furthermore her father was member of this site.

It's simple..think about what you are posting and how it may impact upon others. It doesn't hurt to be kind and considerate!

I am not running her down. This topic was started due to the fact of questioning the sign not her. Giving people information about an item is helping them get rid of the item. I like the woman, she was very nice and polite to me and i was the same to her. I just dont like when people change the story on a item. Also if you THINK it is a bunch of junk you shouldnt be commenting on this topic anyways. This site is made for informative topics not beating people down. I gave her an honest opinion with facts behind it. I could care less about if i got the sign or not. I would rather it be appreciated by the new owner. If it is real or not is the question at hand, not if one person is running a site down. Many people think differently about the sign and if it is real. That is what makes the collecting world go round. Dealing with people and making bonds is more important than an item.

So lets please get this post back on topic.

The best thing i can think of is to put out a new topic with a poll and let that be that.
thanks
Dan

Just to be clear, I have not changed the story on this item. Look at my post on Ebay, http://www.ebay.com/itm/140884371232?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649, it does not mention size anywhere. I still need to go to my mom's and measure for sure, I'm thinking it's probably around 40" from front hoof to back hoof, if you look at the pictures, it's against the landing of my staircase, which measures about 40" across and it's a little longer than that. Mr Bettin said it was 2', I am saying he never asked, he just made the post saying it's 2', which is not true.
The reason we questioned it originally is because we had a local guy come over who drooled all over it and then said he thinks it's fake and offered a lowball amount. I put it on here knowing it's possible my dad could have made a mistake when he verified it's authenticity. I had 7 unanimous people, who I could consider to know what they're talking about, say it's real. I was then PM'ing Dan after he contacted me about a can. He gave me some great info and then said he thinks it's possibly a repro and offered to buy it, which is the situation we were just coming out of. Please know that for every 10 people with good intentions, we have at least 1 vulture looking to snag a deal from someone who does not have a lot of knowledge on this topic. If I were trying to be dishonest or pull something over, I certainly wouldn't come to a site like this a direct people to my dad's items, they would know in a heartbeat!!!
The bottom line for me is this: my dad deemed it to be real, he kept it and hung it. He had over 25+ years of collecting under his belt, and he only collected the best. Every person on here, I consider to be knowledgable and can back up their opinion with material to show why. It's just that there's so much material that goes both ways, it's enough to make my head spin.
I'll get proper measurements today and post them. If there's one thing I have learned in my short 2 months at this, it's that every detail matters. What makes a 2' fake might be what makes a 3' real. Hopefully when I get some good pictures, we can get a more clear idea. Again, thank you guys so much for your opinions and help, this has been quite a lively conversation!!

Thank you Alyssa for your words. They mean a lot on this controversial topic. I really do hope the best for you and your family. They are in my prayers at this time of hardship. Best of luck with the auction and hope this topic dies down on the negativity.

Dan

Well my apologies that this "younger member" stood up for the integrity of some of the most knowledgable and reasonable members. Me being young doesn't have anything to do with what was posted sirs.

I have seen some of the guys on here point out stuff that the fellas on CSI couldn't find in a good hour of prime time TV.

Y'all say Mr. Bettin is an iintelligent collector.

However the facts are:

-He pretty well bashed this entire site
-He apparently acted in a way that caused him to lose privileges.

Proof is in the pudding I reckon.

To get back on topic.

Alyssa. I would consult with some of these more knowledgable collectors individually. Dick, Randy (advertologist), Dave, and Pegasus.

That's not to say others aren't right or wrong. But these guys have helped me and others out PLENTY. And I've never been mislead.


Otherwise everyone is gonna throw their 2 cents in and keep turning this into day time courtroom drama.

Best of luck.

I may as well throw my two-cents in.....

1. Please don't contact people to make offers before they are ready to start selling
2. Alyssa: You and I have spoken (via PMs) on a number of your items on posting, etc. I would suggest maybe pulling the item off of ebay until you are sure one way or the other and then repost with what you know or post it as you are not sure. You guys obviously have a big job ahead of you and not being sure could harm your reputation on ebay for future auctions. Personally, I think you and your mom are more than above board and honest in what you are trying to accomplish. Hang in there.

i agree with Alex on this one. I admit i was wrong in making an offer on the sign. I wasnt trying to snag something real for a fake price. if i was, i would be anonymous.

Best thing for Alyssa to do would be get some good Sign Collectors books with photos and asked the following;

Richard (Pegasus) is a expert in Mobil items.
Randy is excellent with most porcelain signs.
Dave Gill is good at spotting repops.

Again if i have offended anyone, i am sorry. Had some rough times lately myself with family passing away and getting rid of their stuff. Alyssa i have an ideal where you are coming from. So best of luck and keep your head high.

Really lets be fair-I know I should keep my big mouth shut but I just reread Rons post on Cheeses site and I really dont see how he bashed anyone really, let alone the entire site.

I believe he was talking about Rons past.

Okay, so I was told to measure it 2 different ways: someone said from front hoof to rear hoof, someone said from floor to tip or top wing.
Here are images of both measurements. From hoof to hoof, it's 3 feet. From floor to wing, it's 26". I don't know if this helps or adds to the confusion. Any thoughts are appreciated! Thanks again!

As with a Lot of discussions in GENERAL PETRO DISCUSSION, some treat them the same as a RIOT, they have no interest in the item BUT yet they just have to state their 2cents.
Don't be Bashing someone you Know NOTHING ABOUT.

"Okay, so I was told to measure it 2 different ways: someone said from front hoof to rear hoof, someone said from floor to tip or top wing.
Here are images of both measurements. From hoof to hoof, it's 3 feet. From floor to wing, it's 26". I don't know if this helps or adds to the confusion. Any thoughts are appreciated! Thanks again!"

Ok,so does this make it a 2 footer or a three footer?

It makes the sign a 2 foot sign. This is the smallest one. You go by the height of the sign.

Did we ever come to the conclusion if this sign was real or not. I have the same sign now and trying to determine if it’s real. Thanks Ashley

Post a picture of the back of your sign

Jim. I tried posting the pics and I didn’t for some reason. Email me at apuckett@spellconstructioninc.com and I will send you pics. Thanks Ashley

Ashleys sign. Seems to have come from the same source as the sign that was originally posted Id say.

I am not an expert on these but The back side to me does not look original. Clips don’t look the same as mine or have the correct angle.

Right. My first thought was this sign is original. With the Rack marks and the clip location, Im convinced it is not original. when placed on an angle (Like Peggys are) the clips would also be on an angle, which would be contrary to what a sign company would do- gravity, layout ect. Ron B. chimed in on Facebook again on these, saying they were made in the 90's and advertised in Hemings as repo's back then.