Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums Known & Suspected Unmarked Petro Reproductions Unmarked Repro Hwy Signs - eBay 'agentsteel53'

...there are several unmarked reproduction US Highway Shields being offered online at:

http://shields.aaroads.com/sales.php

...and on eBay by seller 'agentsteel53'...the link below will take you to one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/custom-US-route-embossed-highway-marker-road-sign-/270737872684

...in the description for the auction above (posted here for educational purposes, and therefore 'fair use') the seller advertises his wares thusly (underline added for emphasis):

"The originals of these signs regularly sell for $7500 or more... a couple weeks ago an Arizona sign sold for $12000 and that didn't even have any paint on it! Dang, the economy may be hosed but the prices on original highway signs are spiraling to crazy heights anyway! Here you can have a sign that is made on the same old press, with the same old dies, to look exactly identical to those unaffordable items ... and you can have it for under a hundred and forty bucks. How's that for a deal?"

...nowhere in the auction description is there any indication that the signs are indeed marked as reproductions...

...the same eBay seller, 'agentsteel53', offers porcelain US highway shields that are exact reproductions, EXCEPT that the backs of the repros are white porcelain and not grey, as on the originals...strangely enough, the seller states that his reason for making the backs on the repros white is:

"To protect the investments of those who have the genuine article (complete with bullet holes and friends), the back of (the repro) is the same color white as the front, as opposed to the mottled gray design that immediately sets apart the originals"

...as the seller has repeatedly refused to mark the stamped steel signs as reproductions - and is apparently unconcerned with "protecting the investments of those who have the genuine article" when the stamped steel signs are concerned, buyers of stamped steel US Highway Shields should be wary at the very least when making such a purchase...

I agree I could not buy any thing from this seller because I would feel I was helping promote the repop signs that can not be identified in the future. Have bought one sign and only one before that I was fooled on but it will not happen again.

I'm not going to sue you, so don't worry about quoting



there are differences. I am allowed to use, shall we say, marketing terms.

here is something I wrote to someone this morning about how to most quickly identify my embossed signs:

the first thing to look at is the letters "US" - they are a die pair which was made in 1989 (I've seen them in person) and the almost completely closed loop of the "S" (making it look like an "8" from a distance) is not something that was ever used on real old shields.

one of mine:
http://shields.aaroads.com/show.php?image=AZ19260702&search=70

the real thing:
http://shields.aaroads.com/show.php?image=AZ19260703&search=70

also, the mounting holes are 1/4" too low. I've never seen this elsewhere. normally, the centers of the mounting holes are 2 1/4" and 14 1/4" from the bottom tip. on mine, they are 2" and 14". you can see above the state name, they barely scrape the tops of the letters, while on the real one they do not.

so, two easy ways to check: funny letters "US", and mounting holes 1/4" too low. that's how I can tell one of mine from about 60 feet away. and if you want a foolproof guarantee, test the paint for lead. mine have no lead, of course.



something else from earlier this morning:

if I etch in the word "replica" and date, someone can sandblast it right out. I'd have to etch it to 3/4 of the depth of the sign and even then someone could sandblast it and carefully metal-fill it back in. bury it for years, slap some rust on it, and no one is the wiser. so, permanent markings will not dissuade the determined counterfeiter - it just costs me time and effort. universal recognition of differences, that's the only way to go.

I am open to hearing solutions. I have three criteria:

* unremovable - namely, removing it would tear up the sign sufficiently as to make a counterfeit of it nearly worthless.

* economical - I am operating on a thin profit margin; I need to be able to do this quickly and inexpensively.

* undistracting from the aesthetics of the product - so, something on the back, likely.

Sounds like you're making excuses to not even try. I have a feeling nothing anyone comes up with will be acceptable to you.

[I'm redacting my comment, since I do note that you had a point here.]

Yeah I have a solution Mac.. since you make a "thin profit margin"(which I dont believe) Why are you making them anyway? You obvious enjoy making identical repops. Your 1/4" difference is laughable and you should have made the metal 2" larger or 2" smaller than the original,.

it is not possible to alter the size of the blank, as the collar die (which defines the shield shape) is designed to accept a particularly sized blank. it's the equivalent of trying to strike quarters on dime blanks. you won't get smaller quarters.

I've actually decided to invest in a steel stamp, with which I can punch in the word "REPLICA 2011" in about 2 1/2 by 1 inch size. I'm thinking twice on the back, one to either side of the number, should be sufficient without affecting the display characteristics.

I do realize I was being quite absolutist (thanks Tara!) and while this won't do much against the hardcore counterfeiters, it will dissuade at least a portion of people looking to make a casual buck.

I need to clarify what I said in the above post. I do not want to single out any one person I will never buy from any one who makes repo signs.

Thank you for deciding to stamp these as reproductions! Like you said, it won't stop the hardcore counterfeiters, but will make it more difficult for the "small timers". The effort is much appreciated!

Mac, Since you are both manufacturer and seller, I do believe it is you who is the hardcore counterfeiter here! You seem to have all the answers for making repops.

agentsteel has been an invaluable resource for members on here educating anyone who has a question about route markers....and he has fellow members here as customers.

He has a great website with pertinent info.

He's been a seller on ebay for 10+ years with 100% feedback.

He's clearly communicated what makes his signs different from originals and has agreed to date his signs on the back.

You've been here less than 6 months and are ripping on this guy in two seperate threads...let's see your accomplishments.

I never knew much about these signs until agentsteel began posting here and he is a welcomed addition to our world of collecting. He's always been helpful, polite, and even asked what he could do to help the problem. I'm sure if you keep trying though you can get him ***** off enough that he will join the ranks of others who no longer post here.

I will work with reasonable people who make requests in a civilized fashion.

But I am not going to respond to slander.

Ohio Oil - thank you

and thank you, for noting that I was just re-hashing the years-old positions which I had held without re-evaluating them!

I also note that it will prevent the chains of people re-selling a replica as an original just because they bought it as one, not knowing better.

With one exception this seems to have worked out well.

Hope to see you this Saturday in Boron Jake.

put together this design tonight:



that is intended to be a stamp 2 1/4 by 1 inch with a stroke thickness of 0.05 inches. I now need to work with a manufacturer of metal stamps to get the final design down. I requested quotes from 4 places tonight.

If any of you are, or know, a machinist who could put together this stamp for me, I'd be interested in supporting the community here!

I am looking to stamp into 18-gauge A36 steel, so I am imagining O1 tool steel is correct to machine this stamp out of ... I can send an eps file to anyone who is interested in machining this item for me.

PM me, or find me at jake@aaroads.com

every movie's got one bad actor, eh?

see you at Kramers!

...Jake, I wasn't worried about a lawsuit, as I posted nothing but public knowledge...I wrote 'fair use' hoping it would make Jim less likely to edit the post; he's done that in the past with information sourced (and duly credited) from websites open to the public...in our litigious society, who can blame him?

...I'm glad you've decided to mark your signs for what they are...I'm only sorry it hasn't happened until now...

...there are some very shoddy repros - made by others - that are obviously fake, yet some people still get fooled by them...I believe your unmarked signs, if 'beat up' and aged, would fool most people - because, for the most part, they are the most historically accurate...

I had no idea! yeah, gotta love our lawsuit-happy society indeed.



there's always going to be people who will buy anything, regardless of how obviously off it is. there's also going to be people that will take a sand blaster to a marked sign.

can't solve the problem entirely in one fell swoop.

Jake - Every good movie does have one bad actor lol... Thank you for all you do for those interested in America's Roads, Highway systems and old road signs. Oldgassers...if you have not been to Jake's website I encourage you to visit. Its packed with information on new/old highways...on the road blogs with great pictures, as well as the largest route shield/sign gallery you will find. If you run across a sign and have questions regarding which year it is from, whether it has been altered or is real - send him an email with a picture and he will let you know. He is an invaluable resourse to our hobby. I think the highway system and old road signs go hand in hand with petroliana.

thanks, grabber!

remember ... guns don't kill people. Dale Gribble does!

couldnt of said it better!! well done!

thanks Mick; I appreciate the support

off I go on my Memorial Day road trip - first the Kramers Junction swap meet, then off to Oregon and Idaho to see what old signs I can dig up out in the sticks. See you guys on Wednesday!

Dude,just checked and looks like your still selling a dozen different Route signs without any marks as you said? Item 270778538508. I see you also say this is porcelain but a couple buyers told me it was a Clearcoat Paint like lacie51 has on his signs and not really porcelain? Porcelain is porcelain and paint is paint. Is this why all your auctions are listed as being Private also.

There is never a Fool Prof way of marking all repo signs that can't be removed. A .05 stamping will be almost the same as using Masking Tape w/ a date.

it will be the embossed signs which will be marked with the punched "REPLICA" on the back. I have not sold an embossed sign without "REPLICA" stamped into it since last month or so when I ordered the die.

the porcelain signs would have their surface shatter if I attempted to stamp or engrave anything into it.

at this time, Bud Miley, I do request you do something more constructive with your time as opposed to endlessly sniping at me. If you think you can do better, why don't you start your own business?

You tell such big stories. Post us a picture of the new signs with REPLICA Stamped in it so we can all see.

You and lacie51 must have the same Porcelin-Coat sign maker. My friend bought one of your advertised as porcelain signs and its a soft clearcoat paint. I poked it with a pin and its soft..clearly not porcelain as you describe on Ebay. He is keeping it because he is not the type to hassle with a return or argue about it. Do you still say your signs are Porcelain on Ebay?

when the die arrives and I can mark the signs, I will post photos. Until that time, I cannot take a picture of what does not yet exist.



this is blatantly untrue. the friend of yours may return the sign for a refund if he is not 100% satisfied, but it is not reasonable of you to attempt to distort the laws of physics in order to defame my product.

like I said, if you think you can do better, go ahead and do so. it's the American way.

Look at your promises from 2009 you made here. http://oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=136800&page=1


You yourself said that you and lacie51 use the same sign company to make your Porcelin-Coat signs which are not really porcelain in the thread http://www.oldgas.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=252588




BTW I said he is keeping the sign and it looks good to me, nice copy, but it isnt really hard porcelain as you advertised or marked in any way.

well then I have no idea - we do share the properties of being 14 gauge and having no shelving, but I definitely did not leave a mark when I poked one of my signs last night.



you're turning this back into an ex post facto inquisition, which we've moved past several pages ago in this thread.

"ex post facto inquisition" Can you make me a repop road sign out of this? Please do not mark it, I do not want the value to reduced by any such markings.

really, you want a sign that says "ex post facto inquisition"?

what shape and layout would you like it? it will be expensive, since it is customized to such a limited market.

I call your bluff.

quit trolling. you are adding nothing to the discussion.

....

It's not beating a dead horse, It's calling out a MAJOR problem in this hobby and someone that just doesn't get it that he is a major player in the Problem.

OK I’ll troll and add to the discussion then. You have 12 fake highway signs listed on Ebay now. Made exactly to the T, all unmarked as being a copy or replica. 11 signs described as porcelain when thy are not, and one Route66 for any state and number you pick. You have been selling these since Apr 2007 on Ebay but still don’t have a die or anyway to mark them? What good is this for the hobby?

Exact copies/replica/Unmarked Repo Signs/Items ARE the problem, they are NOT adding to the hobby of collecting. Just padding your pockets & Your trying to justify it!

Dick B: of course I am justifying it! they are my product, and I would like to sell them. Keep myself in business and all that. American way, yade yada.

if you really want to know the differences that make them less than *exact* copies, I am happy to share (please see two pages ago with regard to embossed route markers; I will happily put up a similar discourse for porcelains - "no shelving" covers it accurately enough but I should stress that the dimensions of my replica signs are well off as well) but really, most people who are my customers are happy to know that they are "close enough" for display purposes.

I am adding to the hobby of collecting, whether you (and anyone else on this board!) like it or not. there are price points: some will buy the original for over 10000, and some will buy mine for 99.

to each, their own. to each, their choice.

as mentioned... I will add the die mark to each and every embossed sign I make. Since late May, when I agreed to manufacture a die and stamp signs as a replica, made in 2011, I have not sold a single embossed sign which does not have this mark. In fact I have not sold a single embossed sign at all - I am holding them here, waiting for the die.

I have done my absolute best to understand the reasonable requests (see: Tara Worsham), so please try to find a way in which to be reasonable with me. If you think I have not done enough - point out the specific ways in which I have failed to do so. Please don't just give me general diatribes filled with moral judgments; it makes sense for neither of us.

agentsteel53, It is funny that you only want to quote me on the parts of my comments that you want to address. Allow me to point out the fire that is causing the smoke in this thread:

"You have 12 fake highway signs listed on eBay now. Made exactly to the T, all unmarked as being a copy or replica. 11 signs described as porcelain when thy are not, and one Route66 for any state and number you pick."

This is not some sort of "general diatribes" as you call it, these are statments of FACTS!

Your motive is money, and like Lacy you skirt the issue with misleading claims to promote your product. Just so you can't claim more "general diatribes", I am addressing the fact that you have currently listed 11 of your fake signs on ebay and you make claim that they are porcelain or porcelain like when in fact they are nothing more than some sort of computer generated ink printed sign with a high quality sprayed on clear coat.

Get it?