Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion restoring pump

I have a question about restoring old pumps I'm still working on my first pump,am at the point of sanding all sheet metal.I think I made a mistake by useing a three inch rotory sander with a medium grit on both doors.Have been hand sanding to git out scracthes,and don't seem to be making much headway.Am wondering if sandable primer will fill them in or is finish only going to be as good as finish on the bare metal is?. I want this first one to look real good and don't mind putting in the time.---JERRY

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Jerry.. Depending on how deep your scratches are.. a few coats of primer may fill. Otherwise, a light skim coat may be in order.
Good luck.. it is worth it. Post a picture when done... We would love to see it.


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Frank

Jerry
Use MP182 filler primer, it is made by Omni which is the same company as PPG. Most paint stores carry PPG. Its about 50 bucks for the gallon of primer and 40 for the hardener. This primer is a surfacer and will fill scratches with a few coats. Then after it dries, use a longboard to get the doors "blocked" off. If you have any questions feel free to email me. Ryan

no your fine! sounds like you used a grinder. just dont get it hot & warp it! if its got surface rust get it sand blasted. the little tiny rust dots indented that you cant sand off will be back to haunt you! any dents get em hammered out. careful dont stretch the metal. doors are sometimes hard like doin a car hood! (you dont want the BONK BONK in & out oil can effect from bein stretched!)lots of primer is no good to fill. (shrink city man) bondo is where its at! evercoat makes goooooood bondo! also if you visit your body supply man he will show you evercoat or whatever brand bondo they sell thats ground finer for easier sanding & it dosent bridge over your sanding scratches. get that door set up where your not bendin over & a nice 2x10 or ? board under it to keep it flat. dont know how rough the doors are but skim that baby out with bondo! turn on the music & start board sandin & cut that door as straight as an arrow! talk to your supply man about sealers. then your ready for primer & more board sandin! ... ill tell ya about primer: too much is no good! primer over primer traps the solvents (reducer) eventually solvents leave & in shrinks your primer. (sandin scratch city) you want this to happen before paint is applied! --- what happens is primer is $high$ DOLLAR. so guys mix it up & spray it. & refuse to dump the extra out. so they keep on sprayin! thats a no no! wind & sun are your best friends for primer. i lay primered pieces in the sun all the time. you can also use lacquer primer! GREAT STUFF! & cheaper.

oh hey i did use that omni primer! it worked great! i layed on light coats, let it sit. block sanded it. (once sanded its opened up) let it sit open. light coats again. over & over. block sanded like crazy. spent months doin this. that was a couple years ago car is still very nice & straight! no shrinkage! --- how about epoxy primer? i think this stuff is the culprit!!? anyone usin this stuff anymore?

pumpman2:

First off - what do you consider 'medium girt'? 40-grit, 120-grit, 220-grit? Remember, you're seeing the light reflecting off the angles in the sanding lines right now. None of that will be seen once the doors are in prime and the 'scratches' are filled. Unless you used a grinder with 40 or 60-grit paper, you should be good to go.

Don't waste a lot of time sanding the metal. If the old paint and rust is completely gone and the dents/holes are banged out & finished, shoot the doors with a primer/sealer to stop anything from coming through later and see what you've got. Personally, I use PPG DP-40/401.

Then lay down a thin coat (as thin as possible) of two-part 'bondo'. Let that cure for the recommended time and block sand with a long board (hand or pneumatic) and finish up with another coat of two-part primer/sealer. 'Spot putty' any minute pinholes and sand. Do a final coat of DP-40/401 (if necessary), block sand, then go to color.

The nice thing about the DP-40 is it has a 72 hour window after you mix it up. I start on Friday evening and put the final coat of 'finish' primer on the parts on Sunday. Dump any excess DP-40 out and clean the gun for the first time all weekend!

Then by Monday evening, I can shoot out to the shop after work and shoot color. That way, when I've finished cleaning the gun, it's supper time and I go in the house. This keeps me from screwing around in the shop and stirring up dust/etc. that ends up in the paint. The color is cured by Tuesday evening. So I color sand and shoot a couple coats of PPG 'Speed Clear', clean the gun and back in the house. I can repeat the clearing process as many evenings as I need to to get the finish I want. Then the following Saturday, I do a final sanding with 1000 or 1500-grit Wet-or-dry and do the rub-out. Assembly on sunday.

Use tom 2 tone's recommendation to support the center of the doors with a couple of 2x4's or a 2x12 during the entire process - including the rubbing out - and they will be beautiful!

Later . . .

Jim

Whats the best way to remove larger dents in the doors and side skins?

Greg:

The easiest way it to take them to your local bodyshop and have them do it for you. Let them fit it in when they have down-time and they shouldn't charge you big $$'s for it.

Otherwise, it just getting out the body hammers and dollys and having at it.

If you don't have any experience with this type of work - don't experiment on your pump. Head to the junkyard and get an old fender or something with a couple of big dings in it and practice first.

Good bodywork takes time to learn and is not something that can be explained in a few words.

later . . .

Jim

So while your skins are in the powder coaters shop gitting blasted and coated for 300.00 (can't beat that), I remove the computer , for cleaning , take all the small stuff and put them in Real Lemon juice with a lid over night , wire brush and drill motor the frame as good as possible, wd-40 the computer, and clean the dials with a plastic brush and land cleaner, useing a tooth brush and baby bottle brush in and all around the computer un til its free, and moveing very well, a light wire brushing on the small stuff that soaked in Real Lemon juice over night and your ready when your skins come home, very one has different ways to do it, but t-way is right about the body work,I have all the holes filled at the powder coaters, the body work I do the best I can , a few dings won't hurt it much it gives it character







[This message has been edited by Dwaine Buck (edited 05-30-2003).]

Epoxy primer is not a good choice. It is hard sanding and uses reducer. That mp 182 I was talking about does NOT use reducer, just hardener. It will not shrink, IT IS NOT A NORMAL PRIMER!!!!!! I used it on my car 6 years ago and it still looks great, except for all twisted panels from torque(but thats another story). You can add reducer to the 182 and turn it into a sealer. Ryan

Ryan:

I've never used the MP-182 you speak of. I do know that the DP-40/401 I use will not shrink. Once it is cured (not dry, as paint never 'dries') it will prevent anything from bleeding through it. I have never had any problems with sanding or shrinkage. It goes on quite thin and only needs a quick hit with some 600-grit to knock off any nibs. So sanding is not a problem when it is applied correctly. It's not cheap - but once I paint something, I want it to stay nice.

My philosophy is, if you have any problems that need filling, use a product designed to fill. NO primer or sealer should ever be used to fill sanding scratches/imperfections unless specifically designed and marketed for that purpose.

But hey, every painter that I know of has their own process and products they recommend. Everyone needs to spend enough time doing paint work to learn what works best for them and the conditions they work under. Obvously a professionsl shop with a 30K downdraft booth can use products that may not be suitable for the garage painter.

The best advice I can give is to stay with one brand of paint and make friends with your paint store counterperson. Get a copy of the spec sheet (MSDS) for EACH product you use and make sure to wear a respirator rated for the product you are spraying. And - put your rubber/latex gloves on before you even prep sol the panels or open a can of anything.

To quote Craig Fraser: 'Live to paint, paint to live!'

Later . . .

Jim

Hey Jim,
I totally agree with you, your advice is right on the money in my book. The mp182 really is not called a primer, but a "surfacer" instead. It has a 72 hour "pot"life like the ppg, and a 24 hour max between coats time with out sanding. Everyone has a system that each uses, some are better than others, and some just work better for others. There is nothing wrong with any of the suggestions listed above, which is a great thing about this page, many many opinions.

What a great bunch of guys. Thanks for the answers and all the great advice.If I can't get it done now,then I'll never be able to.I'll see about getting some pic's posted when I finish.----JERRY

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In my opinion, the best primer surfacer I have ever used is PPG's NCP-250. This is a two part product with outstanding fill, no shrinkage and very quick cure. Low overspray and no isocyanates are also advantages. We have used it everyday at my shop for years. Never any problems, even when abused. While it is always best to cover bare metal with a self-etching primer first, this product has shown great adhesion on all surfaces, including bare metal. The only downside is that it has a short pot life due to its quick cure. Use all that you mix within an hour and clean the gun as soon as possible! That great adhesion works on your paint gun too, if it sits too long. Be sure to ask the PPG jobber for the "P Sheet" for this or any other PPG product. These sheets have all the info you need to do it right except for the very technical safety stuff on the MSDS sheets.
We no longer use the DP sealers although they were fine sealers in their day. They are no longer legal here for environmental reasons. They are not intended to fill like a surfacer. DP-LF is an EPA-compliant sealer, but we use PPG's newer 2000 series wet-on-wet sealers for our production work.

Jim "Oldgas" Potts
35 years in the body shop, trying not to breath all that stuff

Jim:

My mistake. I failed to add the 'LF' [i.e. Lead Free] to the end of my posting for the DP-40/410. I didn't even think about it as you can't buy the lead-based stuff anywhere anymore (at least not in the U.S.).

I've never had much experience with 'surfacers'. I usually mix up some PPG 'bondo' and go at it to fill any imperfections. The surfacers that I have tried always seemed to me to be too 'light' and I didn't like the density of them if any build was necessary. Plus, I don't DO bodywork - just the occasional 'door-ding' of dent in a Harley tank.

Although, the next time I go to the paint store, I may get a bit of the NCP-250 and give it a try, since you speak so highly of it.

With all the two-part products out now, my paint cabinet is filling up fast. It's hard to keep it all in order if you don't use it everyday. Matter-of-fact, I've got a half a quart of old black paint sitting and evaporating right now because I can't get the necessary 2nd part to use it up. And I can't throw it out if it's still liquid! Stuff like that happens when you only use your paints occasionally and the EPA changes the game all the time.

I specialize in pinstriping, graphics and the (very) occasional full-car paint job. However, lately I've been doing more motorcycle work. None of which takes an enormous amount of paint. The only product I buy in gallons is primer/sealer and their additives. Oh, and reducer/thinner of course. Everything else, I get in quarts or pints as I don't use very much at a time.

Thanks to eveyone for their input. You're never too old to learn a new trick or a new product.

Later . . .

Jim
T-way's Graphic F/X, Inc.
Lines, signs and designs since 1977