Primarily Petroliana Shop Talk Forums Shop Talk Petroliana Forums General Petroliana Discussion SIGN AUTHENTICITY, SHELVING and VALIDATION

IMPORTANT PLEASE READ IF YOU ARE NEW TO THE HOBBY, OR HAVE QUESTIONS REGARDING SIGN AUTHENTICITY AND SHELVING……..

I have seen a lot of collectors posting that they think their sign is real because of shelving or fake because no shelving. I replied in another post with the following. Please read if you are interested……

I have been a collector for a long long time, and I would like to make something clear to everyone (as a learning experience).

Real signs can have shelving or no shelving. Period

Fake signs can have shelving or no shelving. Period

Shelving does NOT validate a sign’s authenticity.

What does help is knowing which signs should have shelving and which ones shouldn’t. It also depends on age sometimes. For example, there are numerous real porcelain pump plates that have almost no shelving at all. There are also numerous fakes that have shelving when their real life counterparts didn’t. There are also numerous fakes that don’t have shelving when the real versions did. (some real Sinclair, Pure and Texaco PPP’s for example have almost no shelving at all. Some fake Coca Cola signs have serious shelving). And this goes for all signs of all shapes and sizes, not just pump plates.

I am speaking from years of experience. I am not claiming to know the authenticity of all signs, as India is producing them by the hundreds or thousands each day. But one thing I can tell you is that shelving, wether present or not, doesn’t mean squat, unless you know what sign your dealing with and what the original should be.

Regards,
Steve

Steve
Well said and needed info

Relative newbie here. What's shelving?

I feel it is the ‘step’ or height-differential between the different layers of fired glass, on an enamel sign…

Cheers
Chris

Thank you Bill.

Shelving is the small step or lip, between colors on a sign. It is created because the colors are applied in different layers when fired on the sign.

Adding to what Steve said above, here is what I wrote on another thread about determining authenticity of porcelain signs and repops:

I'll post a few comments to help the readers of this thread. I'm NOT the authority nor do I want to be, but this is what I have learned over the years. I started collecting about 40 years ago. I made an attempt to buy American Porcelain in Dallas (in about 2005) that had been in business since the late 30's. They made all of the New Jersey transit signs as well as oil company signs, automotive signs, etc. I spend several days in Dallas talking to the employees/managers who had been in the business 30 years. I watched them make signs and asked how signs were made in the 40's vs. 90's.

This is what was taught to me at the factory:

Old signs (before computer graphics) were "hand cut stencils" with an exacto knife. This means if you look close and the sign you are looking at has 2 - "O"s, each "O" will be slightly different because it was hand cut. Computerized graphics will make both "O"s exactly the same. This test will catch a LOT of signs.

Look at curved/arched letters that go around the perimeter of a 42" sign. Are the letters spaced properly? When "fakes" are made, these perimeter letters are hand spaced (copied and dragged) in place. In most cases, the spacing is slightly off, the angle is slightly off on a couple of letters, and it looks like an ugly sweater. You can't quite telll what looks wrong, but something does.

Barometric pressure effect firing and boiling point of frit (the compound fired to make porcelain), therefore "color" which are not stock colors are very hard to match. It is not like mixing paint, because there is no paint in porcelain and the color doesn't reveal itself until after the sign is fired. This is why the green T in the Texaco logo is so hard to match. Or the blue in the Magnolia signs are so hard to match.

These porcelain sign companies who were contracted in the 40's from these huge oil companies didn't put out junk. Although the signs were "production" signs, they had quality control and high standards in place.

Summary:

If you take all of the obvious reasons, comments listed above, and apply some of my knowledge, it will be hard to get burned. AND lastly, unless you know the seller and he will not guarantee your satisfaction DO NOT buy from a picture because you can't always examine everything.

I've been on this site (oldgas) close to 20 years and it has been and still is the best place to come to for insight and information, thanks to its members!